Comments on: DD21: Pushing Back the Fog of War http://www.chromecow.com/2006/03/31/dd21-pushing-back-the-fog-of-war/ Game designer, mad scientist and tinkerer Thu, 08 Oct 2009 18:58:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Sean Hyde-Moyer http://www.chromecow.com/2006/03/31/dd21-pushing-back-the-fog-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-124 Sean Hyde-Moyer Mon, 03 Apr 2006 17:42:19 +0000 http://www.chromecow.com/2006/03/31/dd21-pushing-back-the-fog-of-war/#comment-124 I think the idea for me is not so much that you run AWACs missions and then review the photos, it's that those photos are superimposed directly on the terrain, that the whole gamespace is treated like a military "Big Board." So, RTSs have essentially three states of terrain exposure, Obscured, Live Reveal (You're there, seeing all action), and Lapsed Reveal (you've been here, seen the terrain, and moved on). What I'm trying to explore is the notion that the terrain can support more levels of reveal than are genereally used. So let me use the satellite example. Your satellite sweeps some section of the map every few minutes. It superimposes a high resolution image of the current terrain and troop movement at a specific level of detail. If you have no troops in the area, that is all the info you get. If you have troops in the area, you get the full Live Reveal. If you have spies in the area, you may also get schematic indications of troop movement (essential, you get to see the AI pathing on the ground for units moving through the area). So instead of this photorealistic environment, you have this 2D/3D photo-collage that reveals the current state of your intel & recon. Maybe you only see the world in realistic rendering when you switch to a 1st person view of troopss on the ground or in the air. When I wrote this back in 1998, I was really thinking about a hardcore RTS, and as I've mellowed I think that the RTS space probably needs to be more user-friendly rather than less. But I'd still like to play with some of these ideas. I know you like the hardcore RTS experience, so it's good to get your feedback. It might also be possible to rethink the RTS as a slower experience, where you do have more time to analyse data, and you still move around and command massive numbers of troops, squads, platoons, etc. I don't think that the RTS has to be constant, peak micro-management to be fun. I think the idea for me is not so much that you run AWACs missions and then review the photos, it’s that those photos are superimposed directly on the terrain, that the whole gamespace is treated like a military “Big Board.”

So, RTSs have essentially three states of terrain exposure, Obscured, Live Reveal (You’re there, seeing all action), and Lapsed Reveal (you’ve been here, seen the terrain, and moved on).

What I’m trying to explore is the notion that the terrain can support more levels of reveal than are genereally used.

So let me use the satellite example. Your satellite sweeps some section of the map every few minutes. It superimposes a high resolution image of the current terrain and troop movement at a specific level of detail. If you have no troops in the area, that is all the info you get.

If you have troops in the area, you get the full Live Reveal. If you have spies in the area, you may also get schematic indications of troop movement (essential, you get to see the AI pathing on the ground for units moving through the area).

So instead of this photorealistic environment, you have this 2D/3D photo-collage that reveals the current state of your intel & recon. Maybe you only see the world in realistic rendering when you switch to a 1st person view of troopss on the ground or in the air.

When I wrote this back in 1998, I was really thinking about a hardcore RTS, and as I’ve mellowed I think that the RTS space probably needs to be more user-friendly rather than less. But I’d still like to play with some of these ideas.

I know you like the hardcore RTS experience, so it’s good to get your feedback.

It might also be possible to rethink the RTS as a slower experience, where you do have more time to analyse data, and you still move around and command massive numbers of troops, squads, platoons, etc. I don’t think that the RTS has to be constant, peak micro-management to be fun.

]]> By: Andrew http://www.chromecow.com/2006/03/31/dd21-pushing-back-the-fog-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-123 Andrew Mon, 03 Apr 2006 15:47:38 +0000 http://www.chromecow.com/2006/03/31/dd21-pushing-back-the-fog-of-war/#comment-123 I like the ideas here, but it makes me think that these aspects would really better apply to moments outside of gameplay of the conventional RTS. Trying to deploy AWACS, and then going through their recon shots trying to descern if a B & W image of a truck convoy is a threat or not seems like a lot of time and work while in most RTS's you are being attacked all the time...your main resources and thoughts going to just defense and survival. I could definately see these aspects going into play in say a modern combat version of Rome:Total War, where much like Civ the open ended larger combat map was a time to plan and scheme with your armies...picking your battles based on all available ancient world intel. That game has been the benchmark for the RTS genre for me as it included every aspect of warfare and empire building I thought it needed, down to outbreaks of plague in cities your armies have risen to the ground. Rome also employed diplomats, who you could use to barter agreements and to scout out areas of the map covered in the FOW, Spies who could do the same exposure of map trick but also infiltrate cities and armies, running sabotage missions for you, and Assasins, who like the former two could expose the map but could also exterminate people of power both in armies and in cities. Although I said it might be too much in the grand scheme of RTS combat to run out the old UAV overflights and then break down all their data while fighting a real time battle, it might be very enjoyable on a smaller simpler more fast paced instant action and data level. Not to dumb it down to the point of magical map exposure ala every fantasy RTS's upgrade like the all seeing EYE in BFME, but something that is fast paced, offers a specific type of information, and is easily read during the course of combat. I for one would love to see the more complex levels of pealing back the FOW that you mentioned in games that are run like ROME, open ended and with a layer of complete Empire control. I like the ideas here, but it makes me think that these aspects would really better apply to moments outside of gameplay of the conventional RTS. Trying to deploy AWACS, and then going through their recon shots trying to descern if a B & W image of a truck convoy is a threat or not seems like a lot of time and work while in most RTS’s you are being attacked all the time…your main resources and thoughts going to just defense and survival. I could definately see these aspects going into play in say a modern combat version of Rome:Total War, where much like Civ the open ended larger combat map was a time to plan and scheme with your armies…picking your battles based on all available ancient world intel. That game has been the benchmark for the RTS genre for me as it included every aspect of warfare and empire building I thought it needed, down to outbreaks of plague in cities your armies have risen to the ground. Rome also employed diplomats, who you could use to barter agreements and to scout out areas of the map covered in the FOW, Spies who could do the same exposure of map trick but also infiltrate cities and armies, running sabotage missions for you, and Assasins, who like the former two could expose the map but could also exterminate people of power both in armies and in cities.

Although I said it might be too much in the grand scheme of RTS combat to run out the old UAV overflights and then break down all their data while fighting a real time battle, it might be very enjoyable on a smaller simpler more fast paced instant action and data level. Not to dumb it down to the point of magical map exposure ala every fantasy RTS’s upgrade like the all seeing EYE in BFME, but something that is fast paced, offers a specific type of information, and is easily read during the course of combat.

I for one would love to see the more complex levels of pealing back the FOW that you mentioned in games that are run like ROME, open ended and with a layer of complete Empire control.

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